It’s hard to believe that we’re already getting close to the end of The Path of Daggers. After this week, in which we’re covering Chapters 27 and 28, there will be only three more left—two, really, since 31 is basically just an afterword—before we segue into Winter’s Heart. It feels fitting really, since fall is starting where I live, and the end of The Path of Daggers is definitely leaving us with a sense of chill, both literally and metaphorically.
Min struggles to focus on Reason and Unreason in the oppressive atmosphere of Rand’s throne room in the Sun Palace. Rand comes in, apparently in high spirits, remarking that the Maidens didn’t look happy to see him. Min suggests that they, like she, might have been worried. Rand sweeps her up in his arms and kisses her.
They are interrupted by Dobraine, who reports to Rand that Toram has disappeared, and rumors say that Hanlon and Mordeth have deserted him. Dobraine has trustworthy servants looking after Ailil, Anaiyella, and Weiramon. He also reports that Lady Caraline and the High Lord Darlin are staying in the city under the “protection” of Cadsuane.
Rafela and Merana come in, to tell Rand the results of their Bargain with the Atha’an Miere. He has been granted access to the Sea Folk ships whenever and wherever he needs them. In exchange, Rafela and Merana have agreed in Rand’s name that Rand will not alter any of the Sea Folk’s laws and that the Sea Folk will be granted one square mile of land in every city located on navigable water that is or comes under Rand’s control, which will be under Sea Folk law.
Dobraine is concerned that this will allow the Sea Folk to avoid customs duties and docking fees, and that such an agreement will ruin any port in which this Bargain is enforced. Rand points out that the agreement doesn’t say who chooses the land or that it has to be on the water.
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But there is more to the agreement. Rand must keep a Sea Folk ambassador with him at all times—for now it will be Harine din Togara Two Winds, accompanied by a retinue—and that he must promptly answer a summons from the Mistress of the Ships, though not more than twice in any three consecutive years. Rand loses his temper at this, but Merana draws herself up, angry in turn.
“You castigate us?” she snapped in tones as frosty as her eyes were hot. She was Aes Sedai as the child Min had seen them, regal above queens, powerful above powers. “You were present in the beginning, ta’veren, and you twisted them as you wanted them. You could have had them all kneeling to you! But you left! They were not pleased to know they had been dancing for a ta’veren.”
She tells Rand that she and Rafela were shielded as soon as he left, and that Harine threatened to hang them by their toes from the rigging. She tells Rand he should feel lucky that he got the ships he wanted at all.
“Oh, by the by, she formally acknowledged you as the Coramoor, may you get a bellyache from it!”
Rand’s anger ebbs, and he remarks that being ta’veren doesn’t always draw out the words one wants to hear. He praises the two Aes Sedai for their success, despite the difficult position he put them in.
Rand asks Min to have the Maidens carry a summons to Cadsuane, ignoring Min when she suggests that it is not a good idea. While they wait, Rand compares letting someone know that you need them to putting a halter on your own neck, but also admits to needing Min.
The mood shifts with that romantic expression, and Rand starts undressing. Suddenly Somara, Nesair, and Nandera come in and begin beating Rand. Min is knocked down when she tries to defend him. It looks to her like they are going to beat him to death, but they are careful to avoid the unhealed wound on his side. They don’t stop until Rand crumples to the floor.
“Nesair bent to catch a fistful of his hair and jerk his head up. “We won the right for this,” she growled, “but every Maiden wanted to lay her hands on you. I left my clan for you, Rand al’Thor. I will not have you spit on me!”
Somara adds that this is how they treat a first brother who dishonors them, and that if it were to happen again the beating would be worse. Nandera says that he broke his promise to bring them with him into battle, and reminds him that he carries the honor of the Far Dareis Mai.
Min thinks the Maidens have lost their minds, but Rand tells her that the Maidens have the right to do what they did. She helps him to the bed and they both lie down, and then Daigian arrives to tell him that Cadsuane can’t see him right now, as she’s busy with her needlepoint, but perhaps she might be able to find the time another day. Rand snaps at Daigian, but once she’s gone Min reminds Rand that he needs Cadsuane, and she doesn’t need him.
Rand decides to go to Cadsuane. He leaves Min behind, guarded by Narishma. With Dashiva, Flinn, Morr and Hopwil he traverses the halls to where Cadsuane is. Servants and nobles alike hurry out of his path or watch him with dark looks.
When they reach the room, Dashiva announces Rand, using the One Power to amplify his voice and a weave that Rand doesn’t recognize to give the room a sense of foreboding and menace. But Cadsuane isn’t awed, or even impressed, and Rand sends the Asha’man to wait outside.
Rand sits, showing off with the One Power, and Cadsuane remains apparently unaffected. He reminds himself that he owes Cadsuane for saving his life, and tells her that he wants her to be his advisor. She is dismissive of the idea, and Rand, reminding himself of Min’s viewing, repeats the offer with the promise that Cadsuane wouldn’t have to take any oaths.
She offers him a few promises in return, that she would expect him to listen but that she wouldn’t make him do what she wants; that she doesn’t expect to be told all the intimate details of his heart; and that whatever she does will be for Rand’s good, not the good of the White Tower. But she also gives him some rules for his own behavior, that he and his Asha’man will be civil to her and to her guests, which includes not channeling at them and Rand keeping his temper in check.
As Rand, furious, starts to leave, Cadsuane calmly remarks that she hopes he hasn’t tried to use Callandor, because he might not escape a second time. Rand demands to know what she means, and Cadsuane responds that he must ask for her help politely, and apologize for his behavior today. But she also admits that she has learned that Callandor is flawed. It lacks the buffer that make sa’angreal safe to use, and magnifies the taint as well, “increasing the wildness of the mind.”
“The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows.”
Rand leaves, with Cadsuane calling after him that she might even agree to be his advisor if his apology sounds sincere enough, but he isn’t listening anymore. He’s thinking about his plans, and how, without Callandor, there is only one option left to him. He’s terrified of that option, and hears Lanfear’s voice in his head telling him how he could challenge the Creator.
In a village in Andor, Elayne wakes feeling optimistic, but she is soon confronted with a crisis between the Kin and the Aes Sedai. Adeleas has discovered that Garenia is actually Zarya Alkaese, a novice who ran away from the White Tower seventy years ago. She tells Elayne that Tower law demands that Zarya be put in white immediately and kept under strict dicipline until she can be returned to the Tower for punishment.
Elayne knows that the Tower will never let go of a woman as strong in the One Power as Zarya, but also wonders how Zarya will handle becoming a novice after living as a free woman for so long. Suddenly, Kirstian drops to her knees, submitting herself to Adeleas’s mercy as having run away almost three hundred years ago. Adeleas boggles at the number but recovers herself, and tells Kirstian that turning herself in willingly will gain her some mitigation in her punishment. Kirstian admits that this is why she did it.
One of the other Kin members demands to know why they should allow the Aes Sedai to take members of their number by force, and insists that it isn’t in the Kin’s rules to return runaways. Alise agrees with this, startling Reanne. Reanne reminds everyone that the Kin’s rule has always been to keep runaways apart from the rest of their number until they were sure they were no longer being hunted, and to return them if they were found by the sisters. She asks if Alise is proposing that they set themselves against the Aes Sedai.
Other members of the crowd shout affirmatives to this question, and point out that the Kin far outnumber the Aes Sedai. Elayne, with Aviendha beside her, embraces the source, but Alise cuts in, ordering those who are the most vocal to report themselves to her later, with switches they cut with their own hands, then tells Reane that she will report herself for judgment at the end of the day. Everyone disperses, but Elayne still sees dark looks in the eyes of the Kin whenever they look at Aes Sedai.
Nine days of traveling (and waiting out storms) later, Elayne is feeling more than tense and wondering if they can make it the last ten miles to Caemlyn without a murder. Kirstian comes into her room, dressed in white, to tell Elayne and Nynaeve that Lan sent her to bring them to him. They find Lan in the hut where Adeleas was staying with Ispan. Both women have been murdered. Vandene finds them while Nynaeve is examining the teapot on the table. She puts on her best Aes Sedai serenity and asks what happened, and Nynaeve reports that the tea has been drugged with crimsonthorn root.
“A little kills pain,” Nynaeve said. “This much… This much kills, but slowly. Even a few sips would be enough.” Taking a deep breath, she added, “They might have remained conscious for hours. Not able to move, but aware. Either whoever did this didn’t want to risk someone coming too soon with an antidote—not that I know one, for a brew this strong—or else they wanted one or the other to know who was killing them.”
Vandene supposes that is Ispan, judging from the way the Black sister was killed. She also points out that Adeleas would never have accepted anything to drink from someone she didn’t know, which means that one of their party is a Darkfriend.
Elayne is very relieved when they finally reach Caemlyn. They ride through the city, and Elayne takes notice of all the Aiel; she loves Aviendha, but doesn’t like the idea of an army occupying Caemlyn.
At the tall gilded gates of the Palace, Elayne rode forward alone in her travel-stained gray riding dress. Tradition and legend said women who first approached the Palace in splendor always failed. She had made clear that she had to do it alone, yet she almost wished Aviendha and Birgitte had succeeded in overruling her.
Elayne announces herself formally and the gates are opened for her. Her companions follow, and Elayne leaves everyone in Mistress Harfor’s capable hands and goes straight to the Grand Hall. She’s relieved to see that the Dragon Throne isn’t there anymore, and that the Lion Throne has been returned to its proper place. She takes a moment to swear an oath with her hand on the throne.
She’s interrupted by Dyelin, who asks if Elayne has come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn. Elayne counters that she claims the throne by her own right. Dyelin says that, in that case, she stands for Elayne, then runs through a list of potential rivals. She admits that the powerful houses might unite behind one candidate—Dyelin herself.
When Dyelin asks what Elayne is going to do about the Dragon Reborn, Elayne answers that she intends to bond Rand as her Warder, and that she also intends to marry him. However, this has nothing to do with her plans for Andor.
Daved Hanlon arrives in Caemlyn. He has been ordered by Moghedien to go to a specific house and to obey the orders of Lady Shiaine. He is shown down into a basement, where Shiaine has a man and an Aes Sedai bound with their heads stuck up through a table. Shiaine tells Hanlon that Jaichim failed very badly, and that the Great Master Moridin wants him punished. Hanlon has no idea who Moridin is.
Shiaine has a funnel thrust into Jaichim’s mouth, and brandy poured into it until he dies. She turns her attention to the Aes Sedai, who begs and pleads to be allowed to serve, promising she won’t fail again. Hanlon is impressed that Shiaine managed to break an Aes Sedai. Shiaine asks him if he would like to put his hands on a queen.
I have read the section with Cadsuane four times now, and every time I read through it I waffled on my feelings about her. Her terms to Rand are quite reasonable, especially with her promise that everything she does will be for him, not for herself or for the Tower. Of course, Rand isn’t going to have an easy time trusting any Aes Sedai’s word even when it’s as ironclad as the oath he made them swear at Dumai’s Wells. And of course, even a legend like Cadsuane is capable of making mistakes and being wrong about things, so her promise that she will act for Rand’s own good doesn’t mean she would never steer him wrong, or steer him in a direction he disagrees with. But she does seem to be speaking quite plainly, for an Aes Sedai, and “Whatever I do, it will be for your own good; not mine, not the good of the White Tower, yours,” doesn’t seem to have too much room for a second layer of ambiguity, other than the fact that what is good for him might be somewhat subjective.
Rand’s behaving badly here, and I think Cadsuane is absolutely right to demand an apology and that he treat her differently in the future. But I can’t really blame Rand for reacting angrily when she speaks to him the way she does. I mean, I certainly wouldn’t respond well to someone, even a woman of great age and experience, calling me a little boy and threatening to spank me if I didn’t behave as she thought properly, especially if I’d once been tortured by women she calls sisters.
So much of Rand’s bad attitude comes from the fact that no one treats him like a person. For many, he is a terrifying and dangerous figure of legend and prophecy, to be either murdered, avoided, or brown-nosed to. For the rest (mostly Aes Sedai and a few other powerful people) he’s treated as an ignoramus who couldn’t possibly understand the great responsibility that fate has heaped on his wide country bumpkin shoulders. As badly as Rand is handling himself right now, it’s kind of hard to blame him when these two reactions are all he’s been engaging with since his identity was revealed. One of the reasons he has become so arrogant is because people kept accusing him of putting on airs. One of the reasons he’s so aggressive is because no one wanted to listen to him when he was reasonable. He responded to his kidnapping and torture the only way he knew how, by binding the Aes Sedai so that they could never treat him that way again even if the wanted to.
Yes, the power and prestige has also gone to his head. And yes, he has become more violent and angry, because of the taint, and because he’s repressing all his other emotions, for fear of being seen as weak and vulnerable to his enemies. Cadsuane can’t really do anything about the taint, and she is hoping to do something about the repression, but I think that she could make a lot more headway with Rand if she didn’t treat him like a stupid child all the time.
Maybe it’s just me, but there’s a big difference between telling someone they are a child, or that they’re foolish, or that they’re bad and telling them that they are behaving childishly/foolishly/badly. If that’s what Cadsuane is trying to communicate, then she should say so. People, generally, tend to meet the expectations you set for them—if she acts like Rand is a foolish little boy, she shouldn’t really be surprised when that’s what she gets. On the other hand, if she gave him an indication that she might be willing to see him as an equal, if he met her on that level, Rand might surprise her.
After all, look at the way he reacted to Merana’s dressing down. He was behaving badly towards her, and she didn’t need to soften her reaction. She called him out for his behavior, and Rand saw that she was right to, backed down, and admitted he was wrong. He didn’t exactly apologize for shouting, but it was close. I kind of don’t like the implication that it was Rand’s ta’veren nature that pulled that response out of Merana—I think it’s more narratively interesting if she has more agency in the decision—but then ta’veren-ness is pretty wooly so I suppose it doesn’t really matter what, exactly, made her snap in that moment.
Now, it’s possible that Cadsuane is being perfectly frank, and that she does really see Rand as a child who is mostly beneath her as a person. But every time I read over the section, I kept thinking about that moment when, standing over his unconscious body, she expressed sympathy for him and promised not to hurt him any more than she had to. And the thing is, I think she sees right through Rand’s display with the One Power. She knows he is afraid of her, and all Aes Sedai, and she knows why. This gives her an upper hand in their encounters, but I’m not sure that mocking him, that throwing that fear in his face, is the way to go.
Of course Rand reacted badly. And maybe he would have rejected her reasonable conditions regardless of how they were put to him, but I think it’s very significant that Cadsuane doesn’t try that approach first. She probably intends to wear him down. She clearly knows that she has the upper hand over him, despite his power and identity, and intends to use that leverage to force him to come back to her again and again until he is able to ask for it in a way that she approves of.
I’m not saying Rand doesn’t need a heavy dose of humility. But I’m just so aware of how much he despises himself, and how similar Cadsuane’s tactics are to the ones that have been used by other Aes Sedai before her, including Galina and her crew. Thematically speaking, that is—there is obviously a huge difference in the execution. But ultimately, Cadsuane seems to be trying to break Rand, just as the Aes Sedai do to their initiates, in order to build him back up into a better version of himself. And that bothers me.
Despite the fact that Jordan gives the different cultures in his story varying philosophies in many respects, I’ve noticed that there’s one mindset that they all seem to share, or at least all the ones that are presented by the narrative as disciplined and successful societies, at any rate. And that is the concept that the only way to become strong enough to survive in the world is to be subjected to intense discipline and corporal punishment by those in charge of your teaching, and either to be broken and rebuilt or to prove your worth by surviving it. In either case, there are people who can’t cut it, who wash out of the White Tower or who aren’t considered worthy by the society to which they belong. And while Jordan has some very interesting critiques of these systems, especially the Aes Sedai’s, my impression has always been that the narrative is commenting on the methods employed, not the underlying belief system.
We haven’t yet encountered a single culture that doesn’t look to mortification, as the Aes Sedai put it, as the antidote to everything. Mistakes, insubordination, amoral behavior, pranks, interpersonal conflict… it all seems to lead to the idea that punishment is the cure for personal failings. This is especially true of the Aiel and the Aes Sedai (and thus also the Kin). The idea is that punishment and suffering cleanses away transgression, especially when it is public suffering. We see this in Silviana’s disgust over Elaida’s “private penance.” Silviana makes a distinction between what she thinks of as penance, which is public, and punishment, which occurs in private—there is a sort of performance there, a lowering of oneself before others, in public punishment. When Sulin shames a gai’shain by speaking to her as she would a Maiden, Sulin then puts herself in a position to experience an equal shame by becoming a maid in the palace. When Egwene harms her friends by lying to them, she has them harm her physically by beating her. Similarly, when Moiraine realizes that Tamara’s death is an opportunity for her, she feels guilty that she thought of a woman’s death in light of what it could do for her. She wears revealing clothes to the funeral to experience embarrassment as a private penance for the thought.
The Maidens beating Rand is an interesting example of this mindset because it isn’t a penance, isn’t Rand trying to meet toh he has incurred towards them. It is a punishment, or perhaps one might call it an insult, just as Rand leaving them behind was considered an insult. Rand recognizes this, which is why he tells Min that the Maidens had a right to do it, but it’s interesting that Rand never thought to come to the Maidens to meet the toh he had incurred towards them. Probably he thought it would interfere too much with his busy lifestyle of trying to unite the world, or maybe it didn’t even occur to him since he doesn’t really follow Aiel customs, despite being the car’a’carn and descended from a Maiden. Since the beating was carried out in private (except for Min’s presence) Rand didn’t have to opportunity to meet his toh—this was a punishment only. That’s why the Maidens have remained cold to him, a fact that Rand doesn’t really seem to grasp. It may be that he doesn’t really understand ji’e’toh well enough to understand the nuances here.
Cadsuane isn’t asking Rand to perform penance, exactly, but she is asking for a certain amount of humbling himself. Which, as I’ve stated above, is fair and warranted. However, she is also shaming him by the way she speaks to him. I would like more of an insight into her thinking, to know why she feels this is necessary. It may be that she is more affected by his attitude than she lets on, or perhaps by the fact that he keeps some Aes Sedai prisoner and others basically as servants who have sworn fealty to him. Cadsuane is an Aes Sedai, an old and powerful one who is used to making Kings and Queen tremble, as she puts it. She feels (not without some reason) that she is owed a very high level of deference.
But I just can’t get past the idea that Rand responds well to reasonableness, and that a little bit of gentleness might actually go a long way with him. Cadsuane does want to teach Rand to value the softer emotions, but if she’s unwilling to model some of that herself it’s going to be much, much harder to do. It is a lesson Rand desperately needs to learn, but I don’t believe he needs to be brow-beaten into it.
I must say, I love Min but her character is starting to become awfully flat, spending all her time sitting around in Rand’s quarters waiting for something to happen. She has always been a character that things just happen to, mostly because of her visions, but these days she is mostly just a plot device for Rand, there to offer him love and unconditional support when no one else does and to bring in that air of a frustrated wife, but I thought she’d be doing more on her own, especially since she has her own rapport with the Wise Ones.
Adeleas’s death came as a total shock to me, but in hindsight it really shouldn’t have been. Ispan may have been able to hold back information about her fellow Black Ajah members, or maybe she didn’t have that much information to give, but she probably was a liability to at least a few Black Ajah or Darkfriends. It’s interesting to think that there might be Darkfriends who can channel but who are not Aes Sedai/Black Ajah.
It’s also interesting, and heartbreaking, in this case, to think about what it would be like for an Aes Sedai to have a sister who also came to the White Tower. Aes Sedai are used to aging so much more slowly than non-channelers, and so would outlive their parents and siblings and possibly several generations more. The loss of that familial connection is probably quite difficult, but Adeleas and Vandene would always have had each other, a built in companion through their years as Aes Sedai, a blood relationship that spans across Ajahs and a relationship as channelers that allowed them to age at the same rate. Vandene’s mourning of her sister was one of the most moving reactions we’ve seen from an Aes Sedai, and it also felt like a good example of Aes Sedai self-discipline done right, of the difference between being strong and being hard. Vandene kept herself together during the important stage of figuring out what happened and then let herself grieve once she was left alone with her sister’s body, with her Warder standing guard. Her grief was private, but it wasn’t secret—everyone outside the hut could still hear it.
I continue to really like Dyelin as a character. I liked the way she interacted with Rand, more like an equal, neither overly obsequious towards him nor very antagonistic—she knew how to hold her ground without making it a power struggle. A person with a lot of power who isn’t ambitious to have more is also rather rare in this story, and therefore quite refreshing. I shared Elayne’s amusement over the fact that Dyelin has a good claim to the throne and strong support, and yet was throwing her support behind Elayne. She even has taken care of a few potential rivals!
I can’t help wondering if anger at Morgase will come up at any point while Elayne is trying to solidify her claim to the Lion Throne. After all, Morgase didn’t exactly take good care of her responsibilities for those last few months of her reign, and from a certain perspective it looks to some as though she abandoned her throne to be usurped by Gaebril. I don’t know how much the Andorans might hold that against Elayne—even she doesn’t know about Rahvin, I don’t think—but I can definitely see someone bringing it up at some point in an attempt to make Elayne seem like a less trustworthy prospect.
But I also want to see Elayne and Dyelin be a badass tag team getting the ruling of Andor back on track, and I really appreciate how important it is for Elayne to be able to do that without the specter of the Dragon Reborn looming over her. Hopefully Rand won’t take that personally.
I’m worried he might.
We’ll be finishing off The Path of Daggers next week, believe it or not. There’s usually some kind of dramatic explosion in the last few chapters of each book, so we’ve got that to look forward to.
Sylas K Barrett has sisters, too, which made it even harder to read about Vandene’s grief.
About Robert Jordan, pretty sure the whole thing about his philosophy about “…the concept that the only way to become strong enough to survive in the world is to be subjected to intense discipline and corporal punishment by those in charge of your teaching, and either to be broken and rebuilt or to prove your worth by surviving it.” comes from RJ personal history and education. He came of age serving in Vietnam and continued his education in a military college, where “intense discipline and corporal punishment” were the norm and key to successfully becoming strong. Now since the Wheel of Time was matriarchal type world, Robert adjusted his approach to use spanking/birching and unnecessary drudge work that was also limited to cleaning or cooking mostly because he assumed that’s how women would deal with discipline and punishment compared to men. Notice how Asha’man get punched and kicked into submission (or unconsciousness) as part of their discipline. Female nakedness and spanking seemed to be RJ personal kink though.
With Caddy, I suspect it’s because, like a lot of old people, she’s set in her ways which have served her just fine, so has no incentive to change them.
Mustn’t forget were Cadsuane comes from – not only is she a very old and powerful Aes Sedai, she is born and raised in a culture, where women rule over men (and call them “boys”).
Cadsuane is one of those infuriating/divisive characters because she’s not wrong, exactly – Rand does need to be treated like a human and not get too puffed up, but she’s one of those people who is so used to being right/in charge she can’t let go of that. I kind of imagine her like Mace Windu who in some ways causes a lot of the Jedi Order’s problems because he ends up being such an asshole even when he isn’t technically wrong. There’s just always this condescending air.
And yeah, echoing others that I’m almost certain Jordan’s military background probably plays a huge part in his view of discipline, development, strength, bonding, etc. And there is kind of a Christian theology around suffering and purification or things being reborn through death of self although I personally don’t think that literally means suffering for the sake of suffering is an effective teaching tool. (Although some people do.)
Cadsuane is a bully. This eventually gets directly addressed, and maybe that is Sanderson hanging a lampshade on it, but I think as readers we are conditioned to think favorably of Cadsuane because of Min’s viewingh, and the (extremely, extremely weakly) plotted development that happens indirectly because of her actions. In fact, I think it’s easy to argue that Cadsuane is the poster child for the needless bloat that overtakes the series in the next couple books. Everyone loves to hate on Perrin’s plotline, but Cadsuane is a character who was clearly introduced for reasons completely ancillary to the plot. She’s the uber-Aes Sedai, the Aes Sedai that all others aspire to be, who actually walks the walk of strength and experience and confidence, who has her eyes on the ultimate goal (defending human civilization against the Shadow) and isn’t some scheming power seeking politician.
But she’s useless. Her approach, while correct in theory, never makes sense and any intelligent person could see it. She’s a self-righteous bully and the text often shies away from naming her this outright, or it does for a long time, but Cadsuane arguably does as much to push Rand to his lowest point as any other character in the series. I know that reading and re-reading the series before TOM came out, I was waiting for the other shoe to drop with her, where she actually comes through and her methods force Rand to confront who he’s become. And that never happens. Even in the moment of her ostensible triumph, where Rand is forced to his dark night of the soul and has to reckon with it, it is still Tam and Min who make it explicit that Rand didn’t need to reconnect with his past to be a person worth following – he just needed some people who treated him as a person, which Cadsuane never did. She could have had him on that path 4 books previously if she was a decent person and not a total ass.
“I can’t help wondering if anger at Morgase will come up at any point while Elayne is trying to solidify her claim to the Lion Throne. ” You could say that.
“There’s usually some kind of dramatic explosion…” Sometimes even a literal explosion. Sylas seems to read a few chapters ahead before posting, so I’m wondering if he chose that wording with some foreknowledge.
@3 – True, but Sylas and other first-timers won’t realize this until we see Far Madding in the next book.
@5 is right. Cadsuane is character who is supposed to be cool and strong and neccessary from the reader point of view, but she doesn’t really solve anything and in the dire need of humility lessons herself. Lessons that never came, unfortunately.
I heartily agree with everyone about Cadsuane. Especially when you consider the fact that while bringing Tam was important, what was important about it was the human connection to Rand. It’s so clear that that’s what he needs. I kind of agree about Min being flat, but she is one of my favourite characters. She is doing everything that she thinks she can to help, she is just not as powerful as others, and having her actually focus on philosophy and the big questions is so useful. Also, given what Sylas is saying about how no one treats Rand like a person, Min is the only one who is. Mat stopped early, Perrin was better but has struggled with it, and the narrative has long separated them. Elayne and Aviendha are far away, and eleven when they interact they don’t treat him much like that. Elayne treats him as a lover (helpful) and as another head of state (unhelpful), but not really as a person who is dealing with heavy stuff. Aviendha treats him through the lens of her self perception visa vie their respective power roles, when she even designs to interact with him at all. Even the occasional person from the two rivers who goes to the black tower, treat him as the dragon rather than Rand. The only other person who treats him like they should is probably Naynaeve. Also I suppose Lan to a lesser extent. This probably most visible when Rand meets Hurin again
Is it the opinion of the community that Merana reacted the way she did because Rand is a Ta’veren? I always thought this was Rand’s way of recognising that he was massively in the wrong, and her words were justified. By saying that her words were because he is Ta’veren he sidesteps the fact that she gave him a harsh dressing down and removes any need for response. I assumed he was balancing his perception of how he was supposed to act (lords can’t be spoken to like that) with what he thinks is true. I also thought perhaps that he was also alluding to the fact that while his being Ta’veren helped at the beginning with the Sea Folk, that is often not how it goes, and doesn’t last. There are a lot of instances in the story where people assume either that his Ta’veren nature is either all bad or all helpful, rather than recognising that to Rand it is something chaotic which is beyond his control or ability to predict.
Sorry super long.
I always felt Rand’s interaction with Merana was he acknowledging the fact that he left them in a lousy position.
As for Cadsuane, yeah, she’s useless to the plot.
Chapter 27
“You’re not a fluff-brain. Fluff has its wits about it, compared to you.” That line, thought by Min at herself, made me grin. #relatable
Min has seen ‘nothing dire’ in the futures of the noblewomen who have come to her for viewings. This surprised me, given that the apocalypse is on and growing.
Narrative: ‘Actually, she did not think fifty Myrddraal and a thousand Trollocs could chase Cadsuane anywhere, but the point was still the same.’
Neuxue: “Now I’m imagining Cadsuane just standing there, hands on hips, staring down ranks of Myrddraal and Trollocs and scolding them for having no manners. And winning.”
Chapter 28
“The lesson here clearly being: STOP PUTTING SO MUCH HONEY IN YOUR DAMN TEA. I mean okay also stop putting poison in tea, because tea should not be abused like that. And murdering people is bad, of course.” — Neuxue
Hoy Moderators, we’ve got a rogue Y on the loose in that sentence.
@12 – Fixed, thanks!
Errata:
“Mistresss” → “Mistress”
“Daveed” → “Daved”
“Shiaine tell” → “Shiaine tells”
I wonder if this information about Callandor could be the thing that Min saw that Cadsuane was to teach Rand. It’s certainly a thing he needs to know.
She’s supposed to teach the Asha’man too. I suppose it will be good for them to know about Callandor’s unusual properties for the future, but it’s not as important for the Last Battle.
@Nigel Redpath (8):
I’m sure Merana says exactly what she thinks. Without the ta’veren effect she might not have dared scold the Lord Dragon like that. The ta’veren effect does not put any words in her mouth, but it makes her bold enough to say what needs saying.
Rand seems to recognise that, yes.
Rand obviously doesn’t think it removes any need for response, because he does respond. He backs down, admits that he put them in a difficult situation and says they did a good job.
@14 lesson Cadsuane supposed to teach Rand and Asha’man is of the moral variety, obviously. Namely, humility, so power wouldn’t go into their heads.
@14 sorry to be clear, by “response” I mean the more explosive kind which typically characterizes his interactions with people back chatting him around this point in the books. My thought was he was using Ta’veren as an excuse to back down and recognise his error
@15 this always bothered me. I agree with you, as that was always my interpretation as well, but I can’t recall any degree to which that actually plays out in the story. She might have some effect on Narishma, and Flinn because they are bonded by sisters close to her, but unless I am forgetting something big her “effect” on rand is too late, and doesn’t really translate to the Asha’men as a whole, and I can’t think of any other impact she has there. Are we supposed to accept that her impact has some kind of ripple effect into the future or do people think that that part of it was just kind of dropped.
@17 I think that all her actions are supposed to be that lesson. After all, she is strong, fiercely independent, isn’t afraid to voice her opinion and to do what she think needs to be done. So you kinda have to respect her and her agenda, see that not everything will be as you wish it to be, that you can’t force your way everywhere and so on.
My problem is… this lesson isn’t really her doing, it’s just kinda happens. She acts as she always acts. You can imagine her agenda not as “teaching those men a lesson in humility for their own good”, but as “control Dragon and make sure White Tower will be powerful in post-Last Battle world” and wouldn’t need to change a single line.
If anyone learns that they can’t force their way everywhere, it’s by watching Cadsuane fail to force her way on Rand, in which case the lesson is that you may try to force your way everywhere, but you won’t always succeed because others will try to do the same.
Sylas is starting to recognise the Min is a sexy lamp trope that annoys so many people about her character and role in the later books. She has so little agency of her own. While I love Min, she is one of three weakest female characters in the series.
I hate Cadsuane’s character. Not because I think that people should have mindlessly followed Rand and never talked back at him because the Dragon Reborn always knows best – far from it. I think that ta’veren can make mistakes and become subverted by the Shadow. It happened to Arthur Hawkwing. If female AS hadn’t stood up to LTT, saidar would have also been tainted. Etc.
But the narrative tried to gaslight us into believing that Cadsuane is somehow in the class of her own and she just isn’t. She is a little more intelligent and capable than your Kirunas and Beras, but largely uses a similar approach to other AS, who were also set on teaching Rand humility. The only difference is that she doesn’t want to subordinate him to the White Tower.
Despite coming across as a DM’s pet, with how she appears out of the left field* despite allegedly being legendary, is super-strong, has antique kit that gives her unique advantages, possesses privileged knowledge that she had no reason to have, etc. she only succeeds (?) to the extent that she does because Min’s vision prevents Rand from rejecting her completely, not because of her own merits.
Also, she is singularly unfit to teach Rand to embrace his emotions and connect with people, since she herself never did that! RJ even went out of his way to inform us that unlike “those other Greens” Cadsuane never entered into romantic relationships and was actually an old maid. Nor does she have nor does she reminisce about any deep platonic relationships either. So, assigning this task to her feels completely nonsensical to me.
The other reason I hate Cadsuane is that once she was in place RJ then proceeded to push back Moiraine’s foreshadowed return, to the extent that when it finally happened, it felt anti-climactic and unnecessary.
Yet most of the things that Cadsuane just randomly brings to the table would have made much more sense as something that Moiraine bargained for with the Finn. Morever, her ordeal was bound to change her and give her a better personal understanding of what Rand was going through. The lesson would then have been something that she had to learn herself first and it would have also let her face and try to clean up her own earlier mistakes.
I do not think that all would have been instantly copatetic between her and Rand if she had reappeared, say, in book 9 (following a Mat-Tuon focussed book 8, as opposed to the PLOD/Andoran succession one that we got), or that her presence would have made things too easy for the protagonists. She was never perfect and after enjoying the tender hospitality of the Finn should have been rather thraumatised in the bargain. In addition, her diminished strength would have made it challenging for her to solve Rand’s AS problems. Thom might have become interesting again in the process too – he really faded into the background as first the girls and then Mat’s follower.
*Yes, I know that somebody with her name was in Jordan’s early plans for WoT. They were full of some wild stuff that he wisely chose to leave out of the finished work. Like Nynaeve becoming a villain or Galad turning to the Shadow because Rand became Morgase’s lover.
@@@@@ 21 – I agree with this across the board. If Cadsuane never enters the narrative, the whole story barely changes, and that is the most damning indictment of a character you can have.
It’s pretty clear to me that her presence in the story is a result of Robert Jordan realizing that he had dumbed down the Aes Sedai so badly, made them so incompetent and petty and useless, that he needed to reintroduce a character who could show why the Tower has the reputation it does. Because Cadsuane is impressive, she just is utterly incapable of fulfilling her self-appointed purpose. The problem is that this doesn’t belong in Rand’s story, at all, and even in the places where it would make sense (Egwene’s arc), both RJ and Sanderson are so committed to forcing Egwene to win that they inevitably have to make basically every Aes Sedai a drooling moron.
@21 – Can’t argue much with all of that, and I especially agree that it was disappointing that Thom faded into the background in the latter half of the series.
I’d just add to your last note there that Rand becoming the lover of Morgase (a.k.a. Morgause), and Nynaeve (a.k.a. Nyneve/Nimue/Ninianne/Vivianne/Lady of the Lake) being an ambiguous character who does some evil things, are straight out of Arthurian legend. RJ’s initial ideas were much closer to those myths than the finished books were.
@21 I am happy to see that someone recognises this about Cadsuane! This is easily one of the most frustrating things in Jordan writing: he gives moral highground and right to preach to least deserving people. Cadsuane is the prime example of this, of course, but Egwene has her fare share of this as well.
@21
I completely agree with your position on Cadsuane, and generally with the Aes Sedai. I do think the internal white tower hunt for the black Ajah started to introduce us again to some really good and competent Aes Sedai, and I would have liked more of that as a way to bolster the Aes Sedai. Jordan could have just had more of the Aes Sedai we see be more competent. We could have had some of the Aes Sedai sworn to Rand given more agency and freedom to complete tasks like Merana, and we could have seen some fracturing within the tower and the rebels as some of the more level headed individuals recognise the serious of what’s going on in the world and abandon politicking for action. Through things like that we could have seen some characters far worthier of respect.
As for Min I guess I never thought of her as quite useless, in the later books, as many seem to. I had always thought her persuing of philosophy which was, to my very uncertain memory, critical to Rand figuring out what to do in the end, was rather important. There is an issue of power scaling and pacing in the final books, wherein they actually take place over a relatively short period of time, despite so much being written, as well as over such distances that it makes it difficult for anyone who doesn’t have access to extreme power Orr agency to do much. I always felt Min, and definitely, Thom were at their best in court intrigue, and the fact that Rand is jumping around like a hare on meth in the final books massively limits opportunities for their skills. I guess that I just sort of internalised that and never really questioned it on the grounds that of course in such a cataclysmic conflict normally powered people would have far less to do.
That being said, I wish some situations had been generated to give them more of a chance to shine, now that I reflect on it.
Hello friends! Apologies for not having a post today (10/3), and so close to the end, too! I’ve managed to get the worst cold I’ve had in years and have been down for the count for a bit. We should resume our regular schedule next week!
How you all are staying safe and healthy! See you next Tuesday!
I hope it’s just a cold and you feel better soon!
Hope you feel better and can enjoy the WoT season finale this week!
Get better Sylas!
Nigel Redpath @25:
Yes, Jordan should have just let the AS be actually competent more often, despite their many flaws. Instead of depicting them as petulant brats in a state of almost perpetual tantrum, who faint and vomit at ridiculous frequency. Introducing one über-AS with cheated stats and gear wasn’t the way to go.
For instance, the BA hunters were quite promising, but then they just petered out. Yes, they ran out of leads, but they already had the numbers to continue verifying people at random by that point. This would have brought them to Mesaana’s attention eventually, of course, but it made no sense to me that they just stopped, not even bothering to check all the current Sitters and other officials. Or that they didn’t follow the implications of the information they gained to it’s logical conclusion – that Elaida was wholly illegitimate. Instead, Pevara just abruptly moved on to the next adventure… again, not bothering to make sure that she wasn’t doing so in the company of Darkfriends. Oh, well.
Merana getting a more prominent role would have been nice too, she seemed quite sensible, once she was forced to let go of her preconceptions. Were the ships she bargained for ever particularly relevant, BTW?
Re: Min, she was quite useful. A bit too much so, IMHO, since some of her revelations via philosophy felt too contrived and should have instead come from the AoLers during early Breaking, who, after all, prepared for the future with the Eye, Callandor, etc., and would have had theoretical knowledge to figure out what went wrong with LTT’s Sealing. Of course, there is a lot of other implausible acceleration in mundane technology, etc., so Min becoming a foremost philosopher of her age in a few months isn’t quite as grating as Cadsuane randomly knowing that Callandor, which hasn’t been used since it was sealed in the Stone of Tear at the end of AoL, magnifies the taint*. Etc.
The thing with Min is that she has no other responsibilities and devotes herself wholly to “her man”. Which is a legitimate choice, sure, but the widespread idea that it means that she is the only “real” romantic partner of Rand because of it leaves a bit of a bad taste, IMHO. Particularly since she only falls for him because her viewing says that she will. Not that I am a fan of the harem or that his other (or any, really) romantic relationships are written well…
*P.S. Another big problem I have with Cadsuane is that she expected to die any day for a few previous decades and was apparently intending to let all that exclusive knowledge die with her. In addition, she knew about Black Ajah, but after they “eluded her”, she didn’t bother to warn anybody. She was able to help gentled male channelers adjust better and live longer, but didn’t bother to spread her knowledge or convince other sisters to apply it. She was critical of how the White Tower operated, but didn’t bother trying to change things. How does any of it make her remotely worthy of respect and trust?
I hope Sylas gets better soon. Though as I believe they are not reading the comments due to spoilers I hope the nods pass along everyone’s wishes.
@29 I largely agree with you there. So much wasted potential in some characters. Perhaps giving th uncovering of the black Ajah to sisters in the tower would have given them something in the reunification rather than just making Egwene the center. I certainly get people’s objections to Min, I hope my comments don’t suggest that. I just feel she has been dumped on a little too much. I feel that at least her interest in philosophy has been going since her arrival what book six? And she has been pretty devoted to it. It might have been nice to have her bouncing some ideas off of some intelligent whites at the very least though.
I am also coming from a position of pretty extreme bias as I am the spouse of someone who has struggled with some pretty significant trauma and troubles, so I (though I started the series decades ago now) have increasingly felt Min’s internal dialogue in my soul. Yes she is devoting herself to Rand, and I absolutely get the objections people have to women being put in that narrative role, but on the other hand I feel that she is largely the only one who recognises the extreme trauma that this actual person, not demigod of legend, is suffering, and is trying to deal with that. The point about why she fell in love with rand is well taken though. I have for years gone back and forth on that, wondering if I felt that her feelings grew gradually and logically or were somewhat illogical, and honestly I still don’t know how I feel about that. I am probably mainly stuck on the degree to which I feel mooostly only her and Nynaeve treat Rand with any humanity in the latter books. I guess I always wonder how I would react if I were in the narrative, as a person actually close to central characters, and whether I would act with more humanity, awe, or cold necessity. There is logic behind all things, though I always felt those closest to Rand, particularly those who can literally see his emotions should have acted better. I even feel that Alanna does this better than some.
Anyway, as I’ve said before, I’ve never had the chance to discuss this stuff with people so I am so thankful for the degree to which everyone comments.
I took two things from the BA hunters:
1. The heart system operated exactly as such a system is supposed to: it slowed down discovery sufficiently for the organization to take action before all was lost. And remember, shortly before they “gave up” they realized that Elaida hadn’t actually sent them on the hunt in the first place, so their actions were unsanctioned. Yes, they could have done more, as Isilel @29 suggests, but I think that people are generally too hard on them.
2. Their failure made Verin’s work all that much more impressive; sure she had longer to act and the advantage of being inside the BA, but even so, the fact that she remained undiscovered for all those years while uncovering nearly the entire BA is arguably the single most impressive accomplishment in the entire series.
@31
Verin was one of my favourite characters, and I think I was blinded by that because the revelation that she was Black Ajah took me completely by surprise, but it was so good. I was impressed but also so sad at her end. When I reread the series after I knew when I subsequently reread things I saw the foreshadowing but that was a great twist for me.
Bad_platypus @31:
But hunting Darkfriends is one of the most important duties of an AS and had been the reason why Pevara became an AS in the first place and chose Red! So, “they weren’t sanctioned” doesn’t work as an excuse for them to stop. Not to mention that it should have been obvious to them that BAs were a clear and present danger to the WT and everyone in it.
I absolutely adore Verin, but Jordan should have stymied the BA hunters in a more convincing way, if he always intended for them to fail. Like, maybe Alviarin and Mesaana could have grown suspicious and made Elaida put the Oath Rod under wards or something.
Nigel Redpath @30:
Welcome aboard! Too bad that you missed the peak of WoT discussion and theorising back in the 2000-ies, but Sylas’s read is very nice, as are the commentaries. Should you have a lot of free time and a yen to see what it was like, you might check the epic WoT re-read by Leigh Butler on this site. Particularly from TSR on.
You are right about Min and Nynaeve being the only ones treating Rand with humanity… but it is easier for them to do so, because they don’t have any conflicting obligations or loyalties. And, I guess, by the same token they couldn’t teach him to embrace his emotions? I dunno.
Wow. I’m pleased (impressed? surprised?) to see a relatively current WoT discussion still ongoing. I do love the series but I have to say, I don’t like a lot of the characters. Most, probably. To put it mildly. Almost anyone who comes into any scrap of authority over another instantly turns into the worst manager you’ve ever worked for. All underlings are morons who should be beaten (both figuratively and literally) and told nothing. “Hey, I’m working on this really important thing that is critical to the survival of humanity…..” “Shut up slave! You promised to drop everything and travel to Lower WTFistan to shine my boots whenever I called! Go, now!” “Sigh…..ok.”
And the earlier characterization of Cadsuane as ” über-AS with cheated stats and gear” is both hilarious and spot on.